Part 2 of Dr. Dunn’s presentation, describing the results of our experiments and providing specific recommendations.
KEVIN DUNN – 2015 RETREAT - PART TWO Kevin: Are we ready? All right when we broke, we had talked about the stochiometric hypothesis, where there were multiple possibilities when I added lye to oil, what reaction was going to take place. So, this is an extension of that, we've decided that for each oil molecule, I need three lye molecules for complete saponification. What if I happen to have two oil molecules? How many do I need then? A Six Kevin What if Ihave three oil molecules? A Nine Kevin I need nine, it scales up that way. If I have 10 oil molecules, then I need thirty for a complete saponification. I'm going to mix it up now. So, if I haveten molecules of oil with 27 molecules of sodium hydroxide, what did I need for 10 oil molecules, how many did I need for complete saponification? A 30 Kevin I needed 30. Now I'm choosing to provide only 27, what happens then? You would think I'm going to produce 27 soap molecules, 27 water molecules, 9 glycerol molecules and one AAAG? What's that Kevin Triacylglyceride. I got one left over triacylglyceride. In other words, one molecule of oil that didn't get turned into soap. But that's not the only possibility. From the same two molecules of oil and 27 molecules of sodium hydroxide, I could also make seven molecules of glycerin, three molecules of AG, what is that? A Monoacylglyceride, Kevin Monoacylglyceride. 27 soap molecules and 27 what molecules. But that's not the only possibility. I could take 10 oils and 27 sodium hydroxides and I could produce 8 glycerins, 1 double AG, A Diacylglyceride Kevin Diacylglyceride. One monoacylglyceride, 27 soap molecules and 27 water molecules. You will note that the 27 soap molecules is the same every time. The question is do I have unreacted triacylglyceride or do I have a mix of mono and diacylglycerides? All right, here is glycerin and we haven't really taken a look at this molecule in detail before. It has three carbon atoms, that'is the green atoms, it has 3 oxygen atoms, those are the red atoms, and three hydrogen atoms, which are the white atoms and we already talked about in the morning what kind of a molecule is this? Is this going to be more at the watery end of things or more at the greasy end of things? A Water. Kevin Yeah, if the water molecule sidles up to this guy, she says "Ahh, he looks pretty hot to me." He's still got the negative red atoms and the positive white atoms going here. I want to pay particular attention to those three carbon atoms. We have a machine at school called a nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometer, and one of the things that it can do is look in detail at each carbon atom, one by one and we are going to be able to sort out what is going on with those three carbon atoms. Okay, so if you remember, I got a glycerol knuckle and three fatty acids and if I'm looking at the three carbon atoms in the middle, those three carbon atoms are going to be in slightly different chemical environments, depending on whether the finger is still attached or whether the finger has been amputated. Because the carbon atom down in the middle there is able to feel the chemical environment around it and know. It knows there is an oxygen atom there, but what's on the other side of the oxygen? Is it another carbon atom, meaning the finger is still attached, or is it a hydrogen atom which means that finger has been amputated? So this is a scary looking figure, this is the direct read out of the nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometer, and we are looking only at the three carbon atoms in that glycerin molecule, and we can tell, the one at the top, the one in red, TAG, TAG is a T for tri, A is for triacylglyceride. There are two triacylglyceride peaks. Okay why are there two? I thought there were three carbon atoms. Well, if you look at that, there's the one in the middle and there are two of them that are on the outside, so we can tell the difference between the carbon atom in the middle and the carbon atoms on the outside, and now if you look at the height, one of them is only one carbon's worth of signal, the other is two carbons worth of signal. So you can look at this spectrum and you can tell me which is which. There are two peaks there labeled TAG, which one is which? The little one is the middle carbon and the big one is the two outboard carbon atoms. This is a NMR spectrum came from a sample of rancid coconut oil, there was a soapmaker from Costa Rica, who came to a soap guild conference and she had a really cool business. She went out on the beach, free public beaches, and she gathered coconuts, or she had her minions gather coconuts, and then they brought them into a hut and her minions stumped the oil out of them, pretty cool. Then she reacted it with sodium hydroxide, as she was making coconut oil soap from coconuts that she gathered herself in Costa Rica and she needed a mold to put them in and they had all these empty coconuts shells, so her soap mold was the coconut shell. I've always thought that was a really cool business. But she said this oil that we have, it traces very quickly, why is that? So she sent me a sample of it and I analyzed it and it had a lot of free fatty acid in it. In other words, in the oil not only were there triacylglycerides, but there were some that the finger had already fallen off. It was a fatty acid, and how quickly does fatty acid react with lye? A Instantly Kevin Instantly, as you saw this morning, it didn't take very much, very long when we added ammonia or sodium hydroxide back before we got our suds back. So that solved her problem, but this was one of the tools that we used to determine that. Now you will see some smaller peaks there, two smaller peaks in green, labeled DAG, what do you think DAG is? A Dia Kevin Diacylglyceride, and again there are two peaks there. Why are there two peaks? Because you got the one in the middle and you got the two on the outside, and let's imagine that now we can ask which one? What if the two fingers were these outboard carbon atoms and this was the one that had already been cut off. Then how many peaks would we see? A Two Kevin Remember we are looking at the carbon, so we would see one carbon atom here because it’s got a finger on it. We've got one carbon atom here that has not got a finger on it and we've got one carbon here, well it’s got a finger on it, but is it the same as that one? A No. Kevin No, because that one is on the outside and this one is in the middle. So we would see one, two, three different carbon peaks. If it were the diacylglyceride, with the two fingers next two each other. Imagine it to this now, I can't even make my fingers do this, imagine it this, how many peaks am I'm going to see now? A Three Kevin Nope A Two Kevin Why two, because I got one in the middle with no finger on it, but these two outboard ones, they are both outboard carbons and they both still have their fingers attached and I'm going expect to see one big peak and one little peak, the big peak being about twice as big as the little peak. Now look at this spectrum and tell me which it is. Do we have this or do we have that? A That, yes that. Kevin That. This is the one we have. So this is labeled one three diacylglycerides because the acyl groups are the one and three position, the other one being the one two diacylglycerides. Do I have any one two diacylglycerides in here? A Yes Kevin Yeah, look there it is down at the bottom in black. One two diaclyglycerides, and if you look, there is a little label there, how many peaks are there? A One Kevin No A Three Kevin Three, so there is one, two, three peaks that go with the one two diacylglycerides. And finally we've got one that's labeled MAG, one MAG and there is only soap. Then we're looking at is it this, or pardon me, is it this? We don't know, if it's this or this and as it turns out the one that's present in this coconut oil is fortunatley, the nice one, the polite version of the monoacylglycerides, the one with the finger still on the outboard carbon. My point in this is we can look at in an NMR spectrum and we can tell in detail which acyl groups are still attached to the glycerol knuckle. Okay, this is the same spectrum but this is not from oil, this is from soap. So we took soap, we took oil and made soap out of it and we are looking now at the inner more spectrum and we can see two really distinct things there, there is the blue one labeled "G", that's just glycerin. Glycerin with all the fingers having been detached, I still have an inboard carbon and two outboard carbons, so I still see a big peak from the outboards and a smaller peak from the inboard. Lots of glycerin present in the soap and I see a little peak in yellow, one monoacylglyceride, those are the same three peaks that I saw when I just looked at the raw coconut oil. So if I'm looking at soap, what do I see amongst the lots of different possibilities that we had, the one that comes out is either all three fingers come off and I'm left with glycerin and lots of soap or else a little bit of monoacylglyceride is left at the end. There is one labeled "R" there, that comes from the castor oil that's present. Castor Oil is a whole nother fish. Castor Oil is really cool because it has an extra oxygen atom in it and the carbon that's next to that oxygen interim sits in the same part end of the NMR spectrum so it shows up also. Okay, so we introduced two terms this morning, lye discounting and superfatting. Soapmakers use both terms, some people like to discount, some people like to superfat, some people discount and superfat and some people don't discount or superfat and I want to know are those two terms the same? The notion is either I'm going to for the amount of oil that I have, I'm going to use less lye than I need, or for the amount of lye that I have, I'm going to use more oil than I need. Are those two ways of saying the same thing? You will find people who will give you the answer. If you ask me, are they the same or different, if you would've asked me three years ago, I would have to say I don't know. There is no way to know except by doing an experiment. You can't just think about it, there is no amount of hard thinking you can do to answer that question. You have to go to nature and design an experiment to answer that question and it's not really such an easy question to answer. In discounting, when people discount they think to themselves I'm going to make soap, I know it takes this much sodium hydroxide to get complete saponification, and I'm going to use this much, why? Because you don't want excess alkali in the soap. So you needed this much, there's the speed limit, but I'm, the speed limit is 55, but I'm only going to go 50 in a 55 mile an hour zone, because I don't want to get a ticket. The ticket would be alkaline soap. Well, you have a saponification table or a lye calculator, it tells you the speed limit is here, why not drive 55 miles an hour? But we have already calculated, we know to a very fine precision what the speed limit is, why not drive 55 instead of 50? Why are you risking it, it is in the calculator, it's in the table. Say it loud, I thought I heard it. Oil is a natural product. Is all oil the same? A No Kevin If you buy olive oil, if you have this bottle of olive oil and that bottle of olive oil, are they the same? A No Kevin No, they will vary seasonally, they will vary geographically, they will even vary from one batch to another. So when you use a lye calculator, what they've done is, they've looked in a real book, one written by a chemist who has actually gone in the lab and measured saponification values, and if you look in the back of my book, you will see that all the saponification values are arranged. From the lowest recorded saponification value to the highest recorded saponification value. So we realize now that isn't just one number that's a whole range that may be from A to B. So what people do in your business is the soap calculator looks at those and says, "Oh let's take the average." If you take the average, well that means half of your oils have a higher set value and half of your oils have a lower set value. Now do you need a safety net? Yeah, because you might be in the position of having the oil that has a lower sap value then you thought it was. It would be as if you were on the road and you thought you were going the speed limit, you thought the speed limit was 55 miles an hour when, in fact, it had dropped to 45 miles hour, and either you didn't notice the sign or the sign was hidden by bushes, so that the cops could write extra tickets, or there wasn't a sign at all. Try convincing the copy of that. Okay, so we build in that safety factor because people use average values from the literature. How about this, what if, instead, you used the lowest recorded value? A Then you might have a lot of those. Kevin Then you might have, the range isn't this, the range is that. If you use the lowest recorded value, then you are guaranteed, that you will never have too much lye. So, in my book, that's what I teach people to do. Don't take an average and then risk that you're in the lower half of the average, just use the lowest value and then you already have a built-in safety factor. People who superfat, talk about it a different way They use the lye calculator, they calculate how much lye they need, they mix it in, then they get it to trace and then they said and I added 3 oz. of avocado oil as a superfat. When they're expressing it that way, why do you think they're saying I have a 3% superfat, it's probably psychologically for a different reason. They think that avocado oil is going to be in the soap. And they're thinking to themselves that's really cool. I have soap that has avocado oil in it, okay, so the psychological reason is different. They usually add the oil at trace, so there's another question. Does it do any good to add the oil at trace as opposed as to adding it to your base oils? If you go on the internet, you can get both answers from people who don't know. But they don't know that they don't know, and they're passionately convinced that they know. It's a real question. You can't think about it hard enough to get the answer. You actually have to do something to find out. Okay the superfatting hypothesis, separate from the stoichiometric hypothesis, the later oil is added later in the soapmaking process, the more likely it is to remain unreactive in the finished soap. Thus, desirable superfatting oils should be added at the last possible moment. Okay, I saw somebody shaking your head. You have no right to shake your head It might very well be true. It might be very well be true. We don't know whether it is true or false at this point. How in the world could we find out whether or not this is true? A By testing. Kevin We're going to make soap. Some of the soap we're going to add all of the oil together. Some of the soap we're going to reserve an oil and add it at the last minute. And now how are we going to tell the difference? It's all going to turn to soap. How are you going to know what you’ve got in the soap is unreacted oil and which unreacted oil it is? A You're going to assign each student to us and solve the Kevin And what instrument might I use to answer that question that starts with an "N"? That you saw like 10 minutes ago. A The thing Kevin The thing, yeah, the thing, the gizhatchey. Yeah, the thing that did this. A Yeah, that thing. What does this do? It looks at each individual carbon atom and it can tell if I'm a carbon atom, do I have an oxygen next door? On the other side of the option is there another thing on the other side or is just a hydrogen atom? A Will that tell you whether that's avocado oil or not? Kevin Excellent, and I will repeat the question. Will that tell you whether that's avocado oil or not, and the answer is "Ach, that's harder", because let me be honest, the oils are mostly the same. And if you look at oils that we talked about this morning, there are only certain kinds of fatty acids right there, the ones that are straight, which ones were those, saturated fatty acids and there are those with kinks, those are unsaturated and here is the good news for you. That carbon carbon double bond shows up in the NMR spectrum in a completely different place from the carbons that are straight. So I can easily tell the difference between a saturated fatty acid and an unsaturated fatty acid. So if you said to me, "I want to make tallow soap with a coconut superfat", I don't know what to do, I have no, it's really hard, because there're just different lengths of carbon atoms, but they are all straight, that's hard. But if you said to me I want to take a tallow soap and I'm going to superfat with, what's an unsaturated oil, sweet almond olive oil, any of the liquid vegetable oils. Now I have, I've got a handle, because I can look for the signature peaks for the carbon carbon double bond and I can tell is the oil I'm looking at now, is it mostly saturated or is it mostly unsaturated. How are we doing, is that okay? A Yeah Kevin So we made two soaps, we made them 91% coconut oil and 9% olive oil and now you can tell me why I chose those two oils. Coconut oil is saturated, very saturated and olive oil is mono unsaturated. It gives me something to look at, so that when I'm looking at an oil, I can tell the difference between coconut oil and olive oil. Both soaps were made using a 5% lye discount. For soap "A", the olive oil was added to the coconut oil at the beginning, so I'll call that discounting by 5%. For the other one we just made coconut oil soap and then we added the olive oil at trace. So I'll call that "superfatted soap" at 5%. If you look at the soap, it's not going to help you, because you're still going to have kinky, fatty acids and straight fatty acids and they're going to be exactly the same. We have to now be able to tell the difference between the oil that turned to soap and the oil that remained unreacted, and the way to do that is to dissolve the soap in ether, ether dissolves soap very well, it doesn't dissolves, it dissolves oil better than it dissolves soap. So we boil our soap in ether, anything that's oily is going to dissolve in the ether and anything that isn't oily, looks like soapy, is going to settle to the bottom. We drain off the ether, ether evaporates very quickly, and now we've got a little vial of the unreacted oil that came from each soap. Then we look at it in the NMR spectrometer to tell oil that I've just extracted from soap, are you saturated or are you unsaturated? If you're unsaturated, then I know you came from coconut oil, if you’re saturated you come from coconut oil, and if you're saturated, I know you came from the olive oil. Okay, if you calculate on a weight basis, there was 9% olive oil and 91% coconut oil. The oils were mixed at the beginning for soap "A", at trace for soap "B". The original oil contains 7% oil oleic acid. That's the one with the kink in it. The oil extracted from soap "A" was 22% oleic acid and the one from soap "B" was 22% oleic acid. So now what do you conclude from that? A It doesn't make a difference Kevin I'm not going to say it doesn't make a difference, it didn't make a difference for coconut oil and olive oil, whether the olive oil was added at the beginning or whether it was added at trace, but maybe there's something special about coconut oil and olive oil. After all, nobody makes coconut oil soap with 5% olive oil in it. Okay, let's try this, 10% castor oil, 90% palm oil. Why did I choose those two? And I told you something about castor oil. It's very unusual and castor oil is 90% all the same fatty acid called ricinoleic acid, and the fatty acid chain not only has a kink in it, it has an extra oxygen atom on it, right there at the kink. So very very precisely, we can tell whether this oil came from castor oil or palm oil. A 10% lye discount was used, original oil was 9% ricinoleic acid, soap "A" was 4%, soap "B" was 4%. Okay, wait a minute so one conclusion you draw is did it make a difference? All right, let's look at something else. Let's go back to the previous result. Originally the oil was 7% oleic acid but the unreacted oil at the end was 22% oleic acid, now what does that tell you? In the unreacted oil, was it richer or poorer in olive oil? It was richer in olive oil then the oil we started with. Now how in the world would that happen? How did we get more olive oil in the extracted oil then we started with? The coconut oil reacted first A First. Kevin First, the coconut oil reacted first, the olive oil was slow getting out the gate, so by the time the lye got used up, there wasn't enough lye there for the olive oil that was left over. Now when we look at castor oil what is the story here? It started 9% ricinoleic acid and it wound up 4%, so even though you might say "Oh well look, here, obviously, we are 91% coconut oil." It's going to react more than the olive oil did. Here we still had 10% castor oil and yet there is far less castor oil left at the end then there was at the beginning. So what's the story there? The castor oil reacted even though there was less of it, the castor oil reacted faster than the palm oil. All right, let's do something different, let's make it palm oil and grape seed oil. And why did I choose grape seed oil, because olive oil has one double bond but grape seed oil has two double bonds, so let's see how that does. All right 10% lye discount, 90% in the original oil and 19% in soap "A", 17% in soap "B". Do you think there's a difference? I have a real question, if I repeated this experiment 20 times, are they going to, those are so close together, I don't really think, if you're counting on that 2%, I think you're taking a gamble. Soap "B" was always adding at trace, soap "A" was always added at the beginning. So we're seeing again the same story, it didn't really make a difference whether the oil was added at the beginning or whether it was added at the end. We went from 9% original oil to 19% in the extracted oil, what is that telling you? The palm oil reacted faster than the grape seed oil. Let's compare that to olive oil? 22%, 19%, do you think there is a difference or is that really sort of the same? A Sort of the same. Kevin I think that's sort of the same answer. Okay, so the conclusions. for the oils studied and notice I'm not saying a blank statement, I'm not saying it doesn't make any difference superfatting or lye discounting, in the three soaps that we studied, it didn't make any difference whether the oil was added at trace or whether it was added to the original mix. The one that's left over unreacted, is the one that reacted slower, and in these oils which one reacted slower? The unsaturated oil or the saturated oil. A The unsaturated. Kevin The unsaturated oil was slower than the saturated oil. It may be that the superfatting oil is beneficial because of the soap produced rather than the oil. Here's people's thinking, “I’m adding avocado oil at the end because I want avocado oil in my soap and Dunn, you can't argue with me, my avocado oil soap is divine." And my answer is, "I'm not arguing whether it's divine or not, it may be the best soap ever produced, but is it divine because there is unreacted avocado oil in it or is it divine because the soap that the avocado oil turned into is divine?" That's still an open question. So, at least for the time being, until I see experimental evidence to the contrary, I advise people that there is no difference that I know of between superfatting and discounting. That means should you add your oils at trace or should you add them at the beginning. I'm taking the should out of it, I'm giving you permission to do what you like and when people tell you you're wrong, I hope this will give you a little bit of confidence that, you know, as far as I know, it didn't make a difference, so I'm going to add all my oils at the beginning or, as far as I know, it didn't make any difference, so I'm going to choose to add them at the end. You get to decide which way you want to do it. Now a show of hands, how many of you now knowing this would prefer to add your oils at trace? Why not, if it doesn't make any difference, then why am I seeing no hands for hands for adding oils at trace? You’re under a time constraint, that soap is maturing, it's getting thicker and thicker, and your fear is that you are going to wind up with a 100 lb. pot of solidified soap that you are going to have to chisel out with a hammer. So, many soapmakers breathe a sign of relief when they hear this. The advice I'm going to give you is add everything you can before the lye. Make the lye be the last thing that goes in unless you have some other good reason for adding something after you have added the lye, and somebody this morning mentioned salt, they want to get the salt suspended in the soap rather than settling to the bottom. A But, how would that apply to the hot process? Kevin That's an excellent question. What about hot process soap. It's already cooked. Is there any lye left? So when you add oil to it, what's going to happen to the oil? It should stay the same. So if you were, gosh darn it, I want avocado oil in my soap, if you want swear word of your choice, avocado oil in my soap, then you want to make a hot process soap, and you'll add in whatever you add in, once the lye is used up. That's going to remain unreacted. Very, very good question. How many of you use jojoba oil? A Not in soap Kevin Many of you use it like for lotions. Anybody use it in soap? Why not? A Too much money. Kevin Wow, is it expensive. Mind boggling expensive. I don't see Derek here, so I don't know what the price is. You guys sell jojoba oil? Susan 12 ozs. About $15.00 right now, yeah. Kevin Okay, there was a time the reason I came upon jojoba was Mike Lawson at Columbus Foods came to me and he said, "The jojoba crop has failed. I can't find anywhere to buy jojoba oil." And he said "Is there anything people can use instead of jojoba oil when they make soap?" I said, "Eh, it's in good hands." Let's see what it says. Jojoba oil is a special case, it's still expensive, is that expensive for $15.00? Is that expensive for you guys? A Yes Kevin Coconut oil, is like what? Like $1.00 a pound? A Yeah Kevin This is expensive oil right? And if you are going to be making soap out of it, you would like to know whether it's actually doing any good for you. You don't want to spend $15.00 on a bottle of soap and then after, at the end, it wasn't any different. Well we went into a jojoba mode and we started making soap with jojoba, and oh my goodness, this is really awesome. If you've never made jojoba oil soap, make yourself a bar, don't make it for production, you are going to lose your shirt, but make yourself a bar and how is this different? The lather was different and here is what I found from jojoba oil soap. You build up a lather and just take this lather and scrape it up and you set it, make yourself a little pile of suds on the counter top, come back an hour later, they're still there. The suds are still there. It is amazing. I don't know if that is a selling point. How many of your customers are going to lather their hands, and then 30 minutes later, "Oh look, I've still got suds. My fingers have turned to prunes, but I still have some lather." So, I don't know whether that's a selling point, but I don't care, I'm not in business like you guys, I'm just interested in stuff, so I'm interested in jojoba oil. It's a very interesting oil because it isn't an oil. It's a wax, and the structure of it is different from the three fingered monsters that we’ve been seeing earlier on. There it is, it looks like your large intestine. This is the predominant material in jojoba oil and you will notice that it doesn't have three fingers, and if you look in the middle, this really looks like two fingers that are kinked, that are glued together. So if I'm looking at that, how many hydroxide ions do I need to break that apart? You can tell from looking at the picture. A. One. Kevin I only need one. That's different right from the triacylglycerides? Kink, there it went. All right, now if you look at that, you see something that looks familiar. Do you see a familiar face there? Is it the right hand molecule or the left hand molecule that looks familiar? A The right hand. Kevin The right hand molecule looks familiar. If you had to give one word to describe that molecule that starts with “S” it's a soap molecule. So as I'm looking at that I'm saying you know what not only is that a soap molecule, it's a soap molecule that's got one kink in it, and if I remember back to the morning, there were a whole family of kinky fatty acids and this was the simplest of them, with a single kink and that was the fatty acid that came from olive oil, oleic acid. So, in fact, the soap end of it looks very very similar if you're just looking at the right hand side, and I said "does it make any difference, you're spending $15.00 for a bottle of jojoba oil, why don't you spend, how much would that bottle of olive oil cost, that same size"? A $3.00 Kevin Like $3.00. Do you want to spend $3.00 or $15.00? A $3.00 Kevin I would say $3.00. But, there is a left-hand side to it, and that's this other molecule, and it looks well, it looks sort of like another molecule we saw, it's sort of, kind of looks like a fatty acid, but it's isn't the fatty acid, it's missing an oxygen atom, it isn't the fatty acid, in fact it looks like, it looks kind of like that, doesn't it? It looks kind of like glycerol except, well the green tail is a lot longer and this that three-headed molecule, three oxygen atoms and the one I'm showing now only has one. So that guy is an alcohol. Now it's not grain alcohol, it's not Isopropyl alcohol, this is a big glum namealol, this is a big, it’s got a big long name, probably, I don't know, "hexadexanowic" alcohol, something like that. So it’s an alcohol that’s got a very long hydrocarbon tail on it and if you're looking for it, what's the difference between soap made with jojoba oil and soap made with alcojojoba oil, it's not the right-hand molecule that's different, because they all got that. It's the left-hand molecule and if I'm looking for what's responsible for this super sudsing action, I'm thinking to myself, it’s got to be that, not a fatty acid, but a fatty alcohol, I'll call it. Now is there anywhere, since it is going to break apart, half of it is going to be a soap molecule, half of it is going to be a fatty acid molecule, and you don't want to spend $15.00 for a little bitty bottle, is there anything else like that that you can buy, and you don't really care about the soap side, because any oil will do that. Is there anywhere I can get a fatty alcohol? Oh wait, I'm getting ahead of myself, so we tried it out. Jojoba delight, 39% olive oil, 28% palm oil, 28% coconut oil, 5% jojoba oil, 3% lye discount. As with the other soaps we extracted the fatty material with ether, blowed it away and what was left behind was just fatty alcohol. So the stuff, the oil stuff that's left over is all fatty alcohol. All right there’s a different molecule but it looks, compare the bottom left there to the guy on the right here. They look sort of similar. This one isn't as kinky, but it’s got a long greasy hydrocarbon tail and an OH group that makes it a fatty alcohol and you can buy this stuff, seal alcohol is what you're looking for. It is inexpensive, I don't know what the price is, Derek doesn't carry it yet, he's about to go on the internet and track down a supply of it, he's probably already registered the domain name, cetyl alcohol 101.com. Well, it's a solid, it looks like a wax, it's a solid at room temperature. So now, here is a fun thing to do, get yourself some cety alcohol and use that as your superfat, add in a little bit extra, it isn't going to consume any lye because there is nothing for the lye to attack, it is just going to be a fatty alcohol left over in your soap, scoop up the suds in your hands, and I do this just for myself at home, I just laugh and laugh. And I don't know, maybe you will find that this is something that you would like to add to your product line, because you're not going to make piles of suds, but there is a different feeling to the soap in your hands and if you handed me a bar, one day, one time I was testing the level 2 soapmaker soaps and I did a blind test to see if I could tell. Washing my hands and I said "This one has jojoba in it". And they looked up the ingredient list and sure enough I got it 100% right, and it was the only one that had jojoba in it. So you will find that it adds a very interesting quality to the lather. All right, what I want most from you is questions for next time. I haven't been given a topic for the March meeting, so let's not do it now because we are going to move on to the next phase, but between now and the time I go to bed tonight, pull me aside and say "I'm really interested in this, and could you talk about this" and I'm only going to be here through breakfast tomorrow, so if you're going to get a question to me, you need to get it to me before bedtime tonight. And another thing I'd like, a couple more things, bring in some bad soap next time and we'll see when I'm looking at a piece of bad soap, without NMR spectrometer, what is there I can find out about soap that you consider bad. Somebody earlier had something that and it had a little white blemish on it, is that soda ash? Yeah it is, how you know because it tastes like sodium carbonate. Unfortunately, I just used it all up. That was all there was, so I couldn't show you that, so bring me some bad soap next time. Thank you very much. Oh, yeah, we ran out of time for this, so maybe that will be next time. If we're still on time and everybody else is finished, then I'll do this at the end after everybody else has had their say. How's that? Okay if you're still on time and everybody else is finished, then I will do this at the end after everybody else has had their say. Kevin I have 15 minutes. All right. Jamie Is that alcohol you talked about, it’s not the stuff with the Bunsen burner? Kevin No, it isn't. If you were to look at it, it would just look like wax. So one thing people ask well, how about my essential oil, does it react with lye. Would you like to know that? A Yeah Kevin In your little cart there you have two little glass vials and I'm going to show you a super-expensive-high-tech very complicated way to find out. I have an array of essential oils here. Bring your vials up and just put two drops and you're going to want to pay attention to which one is which. I think we had some little sticky labels. So each person has two vials, just take a variety of these things and at the end when you get to the end of the line, add a couple of drops this is 30% sodium hydroxide, add a few drops of sodium hydroxide, add it one drop at a time so you pay attention, first drop, what did that do, second drop what did that do. Right now you can squirt the rest of it in. But I want you to pay attention when the first drop of lye hits it, do you see a visible change. Let's see how that goes. A One essential oil or all of them? Kevin Each vial, you just pick which one do you want? Oh, there were two vials because there are two ???? A Okay Kevin Each person, just pick, let's have a variety and I spread them out so you just don't have to be in line. Just pay attention to which oil you are taking A How much are we putting in Kevin Just two drops A Oh, okay Kevin And give it a sniff, so that you know what it smells like and then add drop wise, one, two, three drops of sodium hydroxide, just add one drop and look at it and then add a second drop and look at it and you are looking to see anything change in there. Just add some more, just add one drop. I'm just saying add first drop, second drop and then you can squirt the whole thing in. I just want you to pay attention to that first drop and do you see a difference. Jamie Seemed like it got thicker is that it or no? Kevin So, pay attention to which oil you had. Jamie I know what I had Kevin Put the top on and shake it up. A Are we filling the whole thing up eventually? Kevin No, so somebody come up and get some clove. Come get some clove. Just two drops. After the first drop, squirt it in. That's fine. Now put the cap on and give it a good shake. Sometimes the oil just rises to the top and you need to shake it to get it mixed up. And if nobody has done cinnamon, do cinnamon. A We've got cinnamon here Kevin When everybody is done, we'll talk about what it means. A How many drops Kevin Just two drops A It smells so good Kevin What did you get A Clove Kevin We've got 5 minutes left. So I want to have a little discussion. Ding, ding, ding, ding, for those of you who used the clove oil, what did you observe? A Which oil? Kevin Clove oil. A It solidified. Kevin Solidified. Was it solid before? A No Kevin So what do you think? The notion that it wasn't solid and now it is solid. Was there a chemical reaction? A Yeah Kevin Probably so. What else about clove oil? I'm just saying what did you observe right now? It went from liquid to solid. Somebody said, Amanda said, Amanda noticed something. Amanda It got hot Kevin It got hot. What does that tell you? There is a reaction. What about color? A Yeah, it changed color. Kevin It changed color. If it changed color, there is a reaction and the fourth thing I want you to look at is now that you've done that, open the top of it and give a sniff. Does it smell like clove? A Not so much anymore Kevin Not so much anymore. If you have side by side clove oil and this stuff, they don't smell alike anymore. So if you are looking at these now, you can all open these up and give them a sniff, do they smell the same as they did before? A No Kevin Did it get hot, did it change colors. So who else got something that they think reacted, after clove, cinnamon? Now the reason, cinnamon oil and clove oil have one of the same chemicals in it called Eugenol, and that's the part that's reacting. So now this is a test that you can do, right. There is nobody here that can't do this at home with any essential oil you want. So you can look at heat, you can look at color, you can solid or liquid and you can look at scent and you got one more thing you can do. You can look at scent right now, like minutes after you have added the lye and you can look at scent tomorrow, so maybe something reacted instantly, but maybe some of these react only more slowly and sometimes when you smell it, it doesn't smell like it did before but it still smells good and so it may be that this is an essential oil I want to use knowing that, it isn't going to smell like the oil did in the bottle, it's going to smell instead like this oil that has been in contact with lye. A What was the lye solution? Kevin It's the same as what I would use for soap. A Oh. Kevin I used 30%, whatever the concentration you use for making soap. A Oh, okay, okay. Kevin You know that's the worst case, right, so it's not going to be anymore alkaline than that. A I shook it and it comes back to back Kevin That's interesting. How does it smell? A Better than in the bottle. Kevin So whatever happened to this, it got rid of some things and now the things that are left are more pleasing to you then they were before. All right, thanks again.